A while back, I did some math to see what kind of effect increasing AP actually has on your total damage. I’d like to bring some of that math back and see exactly when it’s beneficial to have Improved Hunter’s Mark (IHM), now that it’s been raised from 300 to 500 RAP.
Firstly, IHM does this -
| Increases the bonus attack power granted by your Hunter’s Mark ability by 30%, and reduces the mana cost of your Hunter’s Mark ability by 100%. |
Knowing that, we can see that 30% of 500 is 150. This means that each Hunter in the group will gain 150 extra ranged attack power on their target, so long as Hunter’s Mark is activated by the Hunter who has the IHM talent.
Let’s find our Constant.
We’ll use my last Archavon kill, which you can see in detail here, 
and I’m using the Envoy of Morality. I’ll also be using Mammoth Cutter bullets for this. For simplicity, let’s pretend that I have exactly 6,000 RAP fully raid-buffed.
Here is our familiar equation to find our average Auto Shot damage:
AWDAS = [((AD + (RAP/RAPF)) * WS) + ((WMIN + WMAX)/2)] * (1 + ([MODS]))
Applied, the equation will look like this:
Average Auto-Shot = [((67.5 + (6000/14)) * 2.24) + ((314 + 584)/2)] * (1 + (0.02 + 0.05 + 0.05 + 0.05))
To make things short, here’s the final result for you:
Average Auto-Shot = 1825.42
Now let’s see what adding 150 RAP will do to the result:
Average Auto-Shot = [((67.5 + (6150/14)) * 2.24) + ((314 + 584)/2)] * (1 + (0.02 + 0.05 + 0.05 + 0.05))
Final Result:
Average Auto-Shot = 1853.49
Using the Archavon fight, let’s apply the first, non-affected total to all Auto Shots and see what our average damage is:
71 * 1825.42 = 129,604.82 total damage
Now let’s apply the affected Auto Shot:
71 * 1853.49 = 131,597.79
The difference between these two numbers is:
1992.97
The Archavon fight was precisely 2:16, which is 136 seconds total. To find the DPS, we divide 1992.97 by 136 seconds to get:
14.65 DPS
If Auto Shot alone increases your total DPS by 14.65, I can see this talent being very useful. However, keep in mind that currently a non-IHM specced hunter’s Mark can overwrite IHM. If you have one hunter assigned to IHM, make sure the other hunters understand that they should not cast Hunter’s Mark on their target for fear of losing the buff.
Think of this, now:
Between three hunters, the increase of DPS from Auto Shot alone would be 43.95. Then there are Chimeras, Aimed, Arcanes, and Explosives to factor into the mix. I’m estimating another 15-16 DPS for the rest of our abilities, each hunter (judging from my previous numbers). Few other talents offer that much DPS for three points. Of course, it will be spread between you and the other hunters, so in order for this talent to be effective, the other hunters must be on par with each other’s damage, and again, must not cancel out your IHM.
Hopefully this helps you come to a decision as to whether or not your group could benefit from Improved Hunter’s Mark.
Tags: attack power, improved hunter's mark, patch 3.1, raiding, theorycraft
The Sunreavers
Venomhide Ravasaur
1000 Stone Keeper's Shards
Boned (10 player)
Epic
Some more napkin math from Shandara’s DPS spreadsheet.
I find that the DPS spreadsheet predicts about 16% more DPS than I can get on a simple fight like Patch. It tells me that not having the improved mark costs me 82 DPS, which assuming it’s inflating 16% means it really costs me 69 DPS. The glyph is worth 55 theoretical DPS, about 46 real.
The talent points cost us mana efficiency, but losing the glyph slot is the real killer. It has to replace something. The steady shot glyph is worth 80 theoretical or 67 real DPS, and glyph of the hawk is worth 67 theoretical or 56 real DPS. The obvious contender here is the hawk glyph, but it’s only worth it if you have another hunter.
Thanks, that’s certainly some helpful information. What does the spreadsheet say about Glyph of Serpent Sting for Marksman?
I’ve been playing around with IHM & GoHM (lol Go HoMe) a bit lately trying to see how the math is working out now with HM giving 500 base. First thing I noticed immediately is that my HM is now 750 with IHM and GoHM together. I used GoHM to replace GoSerp for my math working.
Bare with me here. Pretty much everyone accepts it as crat now that GSerp basically adds 2 more ticks to your sting. Now this SOUNDS great in theory for Chimera. More ticks means more damage to add on of course. However, if you wait until the last sec to use Chimera you’ll have to wait an extra 6 sec. While that does make it hit stronger, I don’t think it compensates enough for the total number of shots you will be losing by the end of the fight. I still have some data gathering to do as I only started wondering this last night before I fell asleep, so there’s no hard numbers to back me up just yet. Any thoughts on this? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Mornhadine-
Interesting theory, but your main source of contention is incorrect – Chimera will trigger Serpent Sting for the exact same amount of damage each time regardless of when you fire it. You should be firing Chimera every time it’s available, no exceptions needed. Hope that helps, keep theorizing!
It’s the “working as intended” feature of lesser Hunter’s Marks overwriting Improved (and Glyphed) Marks that make the IHM talent unappealing. There’s simply far too large a chance that your 3 talent points (and possibly glyph slot) will be rendered useless by another Hunter. Unless you can explicitly coordinate with your fellow raid Hunters to never cast HM, you’re at a great disadvantage (more then the other Hunters). And given that it’s very common to have HM macroed (to pat attack for example) there’s a great chance that despite intentions, you’ll lose your IHM.
Until this “feature” is removed, I just don’t see the risk taking the talent (let alone the glyph) to be worthwhile.
Those were my thoughts on the issue, knowing how proactive our hunters are, and how important the GCD can be in a three minute fight. I don’t think I’ll be taking it.
Ok, I see what you all are getting at. I miss interpreted the Chimera description.
“instantly deals 40% of the damage done by your serpent sting”
I misunderstood it as 40% of the damage done SO FAR rather than 40% of the end damage. Come to think of it, I seem to remember reading that exact point some where before (probably here). Well its a good thing I mentioned it here before I got too far into the numbers & fried my own brain lol. Back to the old glyphs…
As for the overwriting, I completely understand. It’s way to easy to overwrite it without realizing it. I’ve noticed (at least on my own computer) that my 750 HM only shows 750 in the tool tip & not on the debuff. So when it gets overwritten the only way to know is by watching the lil debuff icons on my target frame.
Yeah, I find that X-Perl really helps me see whether or not the IHM buff is up – if it’s huge, it’s mine. If it’s not…well, you get the point. lol Back when I had it, I realized it was getting pushed out repeatedly, and that’s when I swapped back.
If you ask whether the other Hunters have IHM or GHM, you might find them willing to let yours stick. I have neither and would appreciate the extra 250 AP so would do my best not to overwrite it.
Well, willing and able are two different things – I don’t know about you, but I have an almost uncontrollable habit of throwing up HM first on everything. Cutting the habit would be rough, and during the transition, damage would be lost. It all depends, I think.
All very true & good points. I do the same thing Nass, as I’m sure many hunters out there do as well. I’m just going to drop them since my guild is very casual. I only have 1 or 2 friends there that I group with regularly & we just fill the gaps with PuG members. Knowing some of the people out there it’d be too much hassle to try to tell every hunter NOT to mark my target for whatever reason.
Thanks, that’s nice theorycrafting
I thought I read somewhere that talented HMs wouldn’t overwrite untalented HMs… that you’d get a “more powerful spell is already active” message. But I’m not sure if someone had actually tested this, or it was just a nice idea!
Well, it used to work that way, but at some point, they ninja-changed it, because when I had it earlier in Ulduar, it was getting rewritten all over the place. *sad face*
I’m really glad you revisited this, I was just speaking to a new recruit hunter in my guild about his spec with the HM changes and whether the points would be better spent elsewhere. I’m still in the better spent elsewhere column. Personally, I would only spec into it if I knew there would be three or four hunters in the raid. Months ago this would happen regularly in my guild. Not these days. If we pick up more hunters who attend raid regularly, I might consider doing it once again for raid assist and coordinating with my other hunters to ensure we got the benefit.